Hello,

More and more often, I have to kill a survivor in either self-defence, or defending my survivor friends.
As you might know I'm in hero skin, and have lost 6k humanity last week, because I had to kill 3 Survivors.

All three of them opened first on me or my friends, or killed a survivor friend of me.

Is it possible to lower the humanity loss when you shoot a survivor that is shooting on you or another survivor first? Or lower the humanity costs for every survivor that has less then 2.5k humanity?

It's pretty shitty that I have to give out 30 bloodbags because I had to protect myself from getting killed.



Here's some suggestions that might work (not sure if it's technically possible)

When a survivor has shot at anyone that is not a bandit, this survivor temporarily loses his "humanity cost" for 30/60 minutes.

When a survivor has killed another survivor, he will temporarily lose his survivor status for 30/60 minutes.



Please debate with me

There's been a system in dayz for this since humanity was added AFAIK. The game tracks who fired first and if it wasn't you then there shouldn't be any drop.

It just never really works properly and never will in the mod. Personally I don't think any humanity system you could code with the limitations of scripting can truely be fair to both parties. Yours only takes heroes into consideration for example. So then you have to consider the attackers humanity and have 2 or 3 different calculations. I'm a bandit I don't care if the survivor shot first I want my humanity drop. Then what about the survivors, they are neither bandit nor hero how do I make it fair when they shoot each other? You mention a 30/60 minute timer also, anyway I can implement that can be solved by relogging as I can't write custom survivor info to the db.

I do have plans to change humanity somewhat but other things such as basebuilding have much more priority for me at the moment and I can only do so much.

In the mean time...run like hell!

There are really only 2 variables to consider at the moment for humanity loss/gain calculations and that is

Victim Humanity
Attacker Humanity

If people want to suggest some new numbers for gain/loss using only these two variables then go for it. I may possibly also be able to include current Victim/Attacker Bandit/Survivor/Zed kills into it too but I haven't tested that properly before.

Maybe change the humanity cost at victim humanity


Victim Humanity:
<= -2501 ::: 0 Humanity per bullet, 0 Humanity per kill
-2500 - 0 ::: 50 Humanity per bullet, 500 Humanity per kill
0 - 2499 ::: 50 Humanity per bullet, 1000 Humanity per kill
2500 - 5000 ::: 100 Humanity per bullet, 2000 Humanity per kill
> 5000 ::: 100 Humanity per bullet, 4000 Humanity per kill


That would be my suggestion, it solves the suicidal new-spawn "i wanna be a bandit" guy.

For performance reasons humanity loss/gain happens on player death rather than each bullet. Your system means if I shoot a bandit I don't lose any humanity, as a bandit that pisses me off and will probably piss the heroes and survivors off more too as it forces me to go after them. Really you need at least 3 sets of numbers like that, dependent on attacker humanity being < 2500, >5000, or -2499 - 4999

wait you are supposed to lose humanity when shooting a bandit?

as i see it right now it is also way to easy to lose humanity compared to gaining it..

this easily can be verified with the stats list ^^ currently there are only 10 Heros on the whole server. that is quite a low number if you are asking me...

then again if it was easier to gain humanity you could trust players without bandit skin even less ^^ currently you atleast know that they should look like bandits if the kill friendly players frequently...

Just as a heroes aim in the game is to keep his humanity as high as possible bandits try to keep it as low as possible. We like hunting people but we don't all like hunting survivors on the coast. Most people play as bandits so having a humanity system geared only towards heroes isn't my aim. There are "accidental" bandits of course but most people who play as bandits do it out of choice.

The whole thing would be a lot simpler if you just chose bandit or hero when you spawned. You'd still have to earn the skin somehow but at least the survivors wouldn't break the system which is the real problem currently.

I hate that survivors so much

_________________
"Der der nichts erwartet, wird auch nicht enttäuscht werden"

Are you saying that killing a bandit as a bandit should cause me to lose humanity? Because I don't think this is currently the case.

Nope I'm saying it should, the humanity system is broken for heroes and for bandits. Killing someone should always cause some kind of humanity loss. Since when is killing "humane". If I am changing humanity I would like to fix the problems for both heroes and bandits rather than a system geared towards helping a minority (heroes).

Heroes like to try and keep their humanity up, bandits like to keep it down but we don't all like sitting on the coast with a lee enfield just to do it.

I get ya

I am merging threads here, because I think the changelog shouldn't be the place for discussion.











You're totally right about that. And I try this. But it almost never works out. Survivors don't listen and bandits don't give a feth. Maybe it should be a lot harder to get the skin (which is stupid in the first place, who decides to wear different clothes just because he killed someone?) so you could defend yourself without getting the bandit skin immediatly.

You are suggesting that it should not be the hero-gameplay to kill bandits. I disagree. Bandits kill all the heroes for their "precious negative humanity" (which is actually a quote from the forum). I see the role of heroes in defending the survivors from the bandits. So why disencouraging killing a bandit? I say most of them are bandits by choice. Just look at the stats. There are just 176 players with more than 2500 humanity, only 25 of them are above 5000. I haven't counted the bandits, but I guess there are a lot more players in the stats than 300. What is the exact number of negative humnity you get a bandit skin at? And how many players do you have to kill to get there?

Oh and I really support your last remark!

I'm not saying heroes should never kill bandits but I think they should be more selective about it than they have been recently. This isn't aimed at anyone in particular there's quite a lot of active heroes on the server at the moment (probably helped by farmed humanity from burying). If they just shoot someone with no gun just because they see a skin they are no better than the "bandits" they are shooting at. The heroes have the more frustrating end of the bargain, because they are "saving" survivors. But many survivors don't want to be saved anyway and will happily shoot them in the back. That's no reason to reward a hero for doing the same to a bandit though. If you chose to be a hero you should be able to deal with being backstabbed or murdered by a survivor because its always been a part of the game.

Heroes can play the game how they want, but when I see them literally farming on the coast for humanity I don't agree with it at all. Especially when they have just shot an unarmed bandit to do it. Not to mention that every body buried has an affect on the amount of lag present on the server until it restarts. When heroes are murdering every fresh spawned bandit they can at the coast it adds to the lag and rewards them for something they shouldn't see a benefit from imo.

Really its a fucked up system, it'll always be a fucked up system. With the rules you have available to you in the mod when a player dies there's very few better ways to code it and they all still have flaws. At the moment though I've seen the burying system being abused in a way which negatively effects new players to the server. In the same way it does when a bandit spends all day farming survivors at balota with a DMR for humanity loss. I'm not happy having both bandits and heroes shooting unarmed people like that which is why I'm not going to reward the heroes for killing bandits. Believe me though if there was a way I could reward a hero for killing a bandit who is at the coast killing fresh spawns I would do it in a heartbeat.

Someone is always going to be pissed off at me whatever change I make to humanity, wait and see what the effects of the change is before criticizing it too much though. I'm happy to increase the amount given for burying a hero or survivor later or investigate other solutions but not until this one has been tested...

Oh, don't get me wrong, I really appreciate your efforts! And I do accept the changes and I am happy with it already. Just found out about the IG-message and couldn't help but smirk a bit. I just picked the occasion to bury up the discussion again which is quite productive at the moment I think.

I guess you have a point in the rather dull killing of freshspawns. I don't support that either, it's not very hero-like to just sit there and blow some unarmed heads off. It's just stupid and nothing better than the bandits on the other side of town, waiting for survivors and heroes.

No script could change the behaviour of survivors who just run around yolo-style shooting everyone. This will always be a royal pain in the butt but so be it. Just at the moment I had the impression that this change is just affecting hero-play which is hard enough already but doesn't deal with the spawnkilling issue at the wholesale. Is there any possibility to remove the reward in killing unarmed players at all? My point is, that killing freshspawns sucks from all perspectives. It doesn't matter if you were shot by a hero, bandit or survivor - it just sucks balls. So what if killing unarmed players wouldn't have any effect on your stats whatsoever? Would that be possible? That still wouldn't get rid of the spawncamping trolls but noone could reason this anymore to "maintain negative humanity" or "gain humanity by burying".

I'm not entirely sure if it's possible to be honest, I suspect not but I'll certainly have a look and see if I can add a different humanity loss for an unarmed player. Certainly the kill would always be on stats but maybe I can have more of a penalty humanity-wise for unarmed kills. Really I would want to make it so bandits don't lose anything for an unarmed kill, and heroes lose extra (maybe survivors too haven't thought about them). I'm not even sure looking at weapon would be entirely effective though, you can still be holding a weapon and not be a threat to another person in some cases.

Coast camping is indeed the real problem, normally it was a problem confined only to noob bandits who aren't skillful enough to get their kills up North where its a challenge. When I saw the heroes also participating it makes it worse for everyone new though which is the main reason for the change.

I think heroes should always carefully observe a bandit before they decide to kill him, thats part of the challenge of that play style. You have to be stealthy and use observation a lot more than a bandit would, and you should only be killing them once they are a confirmed threat to you or others. When its just a Hero shooting someone because of their skin its stupid.

Quite amusingly this literally just happened 25 mins ago and the OP of this thread was doing the shooting by the look of it, so I thought I'd share.

11:29:22 : Side: Lamzak: yellow hatchback, who
11:29:29 : Side: Marian: dunno
11:29:44 : Side: Ryndus: just shot! dont ask!
11:29:57 : Side: Ryndus: kill this bandit
11:29:57 : Side: Lamzak: we are no bandits
11:30:23 : Side: Csaba: yellow car not bandit
11:30:24 : Side: Lamzak: No idea what it means

11:32:27 "P1ayer PID#19(Csaba) hit by PID#34(Lamzak) with M249_DZ/B_556x45_Ball from 226 meters"
11:32:32 "P1ayer PID#18(Zozi) hit by PID#34(Lamzak) with M249_DZ/B_556x45_Ball from 225 meters"
11:32:34 "P1ayer PID#18(Zozi) hit by PID#34(Lamzak) with M249_DZ/B_556x45_Ball from 225 meters"
11:32:32 "PKILL: Zozi (240146118) was killed by Lamzak (233841350) with weapon M249_DZ from 224.9 meters"

11:32:58 : Side: Lamzak: we don't like bandit's tho
11:33:18 : Side: Csaba: we where not
11:33:24 : Side: Lamzak: one of you was

Csaba: (the first player who was hit with a shot)


Zozi:


Two players, neither particularly geared nor a threat, they didn't fire first and had no idea why they were shot at. They were shot at, and the bandit killed by a hero with 14247 humanity who had them easily outgunned with a machine gun. Purely because one of them had a bandit skin. He was barely a bandit at -4k and could easily have gotten the skin in self defense anyway but he was still murdered.

I didn't see this in game but it certainly looked like "Hero KoS" as I call it from the logs and this is the kind of thing I'm trying not to encourage with bury body also giving humanity because it has a negative effect on new players like it did for these two guys.

I see the heros beeing in some sort of dilemma here.

First of all killing freshspawns is wrong and should not be rewarded for any playstyle. Neiher for heros farming freshspawn bandits nor should bandits get a bonus in negativ humanity for killing freshspawn survivors.

I do however also not see why heros should not be allowed to go and kill some people =) I mean i like to help people and i take enough risks with not shooting a survivor every once in a while but i also like to kill people and i dont see why i should not shoot someone with a bandit skin.

He clearly has killed survivors before, even if in selfdefence. If he wants to go back to survivor he just has to take one for the team and prove his martyr qualities and loose some basic gear.

I dont mind that burying a bandit does not give you humanity as this does not really make sense but then again i think their should be some reward humanity wise for killing a bandit as this might very much protect a survivor, if not immediately then maybe later.

Why not add positive humanity for killing bandits? This would kind of balance the difficulty of becoming hero and the difficulty of becoming bandit. Currently its way to easy to pile up that negative humanity ^^

Another point that has been mentioned yesterday on ts is that humanity really does not say anything about the way you play. You can go give a freshspawn food and guns and take a high risk with it and still gain nothing from it - you can murder a group of unarmed bandits without taking any risk and used to be able to gain humanity from it. In the end its just a stat for he e-penis (which i like having and will continue to farm XD) and does not say anything about the player himself

I never said heroes shouldn't be able to kill people I'm just not going to reward them for doing it. If I gave them humanity for bandit kills the amount of "hero KoS" would be even higher.

It's funny because you guys like to think you are "saving survivors" when half the time you just piss accidental bandits off and make them quit, like Timo in the example above. If I gave you humanity for the same thing then that would only increase the amount of bandits getting shot by heroes.

Like you say, the measurement of humanity is almost completely pointless. I think I should just remove it from the debug monitor and all stats and then you can all stop complaining about it and getting so obsessed with a pointless number!

Yeah, nice example...

We (some of FP) recently established the personal rule to ask survivors to type something in direct chat so we see their ingame names, this gives you a pretty good guess on their behavior, yet you can not be sure anyway. (And we´re not always check back with the playerstats... ^^)

To apply the same to bandits seems very (very) risky especially if their armed or at great distance (because I think the side chat is for other things). Maybe I will try that though...

What I never thought about is what makes me a hero in DayZ. So only because I care about my mates and do not kill survivors I´m a hero? Dosent that make me only a decent human being? I can arrange with myself that after a zombie apocalypse the standards (regarding morals) are pretty low, and so should my expectations I guess. In the end Kills are currently the scale of success in DayZ for every player - just look at the structure and content of server statistics (not even the ZS-statistics specifically). As a game DayZ enforces violent behavior, who doesnt know thoughts like "I could kill him now so easylie" after giving some stranger a bloodpack or see someone running in the open.
The only solution for this is making everyone equal in appearance and maybe even disable Teamspeak. ^^ Thats the Utopia we want I guess. Thats the Utopia we will never have. Thats the Utopia I cement with my corpse and blood every time I get killed.

That is actualy the best idea ever.

Make everyone look the same but keep the humanity as it used to be. Therefore if you want to be a hero you will HAVE to talk to the people you see/judge on their behavior. Maybe balance the humanity loss on killing a survivor to make it not as devastating when it happens but oh well we can all keep on crying ^^

I would realy like to see that happen. Would give the hero gameplay a completly new edge and difficulty.

Though that raises the question again why bandits get rewarded with negative humanity and heros punished. If you have an e-penis afterall... The "Homo homini lupus est"-thing is really grinding my gears. Why does it pay off to be a dick so much?

why should it not? moral is human weakness ^^

same skin would btw also solve the problem of bandits/survivors/heros beeing differently well camoed

Hero's kill bandits, I only hit the survivor by accident.

I left them, I left the car intact, I didn't loot.

The bandit was outside the car (before I was), so he was a threat. I didn't see what gun he had, from the distance I was at it could just swell have been a m14.

I've been fucked to often by bandit's and faulty survivors. I still help survivors, so I'm still doing my hero part.
Especially when I'm sure they're not going to shoot me in the back.

You say: "It's funny because you guys like to think you are "saving survivors" when half the time you just piss accidental bandits off and make them quit"

I've been "traitored" so often, the trust in survivors is quite low. And bandit's just get instakilled. Fresh spawn or not. They also kill me fresh spawn.

Apparently they did also, they are not bandit's for nothing!

Bandit's are bandit

Yeah well it´s not that easy to categorize... administering blood for example.

Is it moraly right to save the life of a murder? Propably. Is it moraly right to save a murder if he´s going to kill an innocent after that? Propably not. But does the "humanity" in DayZ (whatever that is anyway) really cover that? Of course not.

The thing thats bogging me is that you cant even say bandits are bandits because they seem neurotic and paranoid, so let´s make them seem even more neurotic and paranoid ingame - by allowing self-bloodbag only for example. But that´s no answer to the real question... what distinguishes heros and bandits anway? The answer would be to either break down the moral dynamics of our world into a simple if-then scenario ingame - or just create a completely new moral context in the game again, on which everyone could then agree. Both are legit approaches, yet overambitious and unrealistic in the end.
Maybe even the whole coordinates of that system are wrong. For now everyone starts as a survivor as if it is considered to "choose" either this or that side. Well, actually its very hard not to chose, right? Maybe to hard... when there are no clear differences.


EDIT: I just want to point out the two main suggestions we had so far...
1. no more bandit and hero skins
2. huge humanity loss for killing unarmed